Ed: This article is published jointly by Kipper Central and UKIP Daily
Nigel was my hero.
I loved him for how, almost single-handedly, he had rescued the country from the controlling clutches of Jean-Claude Juncker and the power-mad deadbeats in Brussels.
I respected him for how, single-mindedly, he had toured the country for 20 years speaking against our membership of the EU. I first heard him in a Tottenham backstreet ten years ago before I joined UKIP. The meeting had been organised by Winston McKenzie, then UKIP’s Commonwealth spokesman, but it was a cold wet night and only 10 people attended. Nevertheless Nigel was charismatic, passionate and funny. I was impressed.
I admired him for how he was so committed to the cause that he rolled with the punches, took insults, opprobrium and debilitating ‘racist’ accusations on the chin, and still came back for more – usually smiling and with a pint in his hand.
I even defended him when he resigned as party leader immediately after the 2016 referendum, leaving the party bereft and adrift. “Nigel has given his all,” I pointed out to his UKIP critics. “He has earned a holiday and a break from politics.”
The first inkling that Nigel wanted to stay involved in UKIP internal affairs despite his resignation came when he agreed to be Henry Bolton’s political referee during the September 2017 party leadership election. I was David Kurten’s campaign manager and was frustrated that Nigel should give this huge and unfair boost to Henry, alone of all the candidates.
My jaw also dropped with disappointment when, in January this year, Nigel argued that there possibly should be a second referendum to stop the whining and whingeing of Remoaners like Nick Clegg and Tony Blair. It seemed like betrayal. After all UKIP’s hard work, Nigel was now wobbling under pressure from lightweight busted flushes Clegg and Blair. My hero’s halo was beginning to slip.
But the show-stopper came in February when Nigel again publicly backed the incompetent lothario Henry Bolton. Bolton’s antics and arrogance were destroying UKIP before our eyes, yet Nigel fatuously compared him to Jeremy Corbyn and said Bolton could be the reforming saviour of the party.
Fortunately members ignored him and at the Birmingham EGM that same month they voted for Bolton to pack his bags. Nigel’s nominee was sacked after just five ineffective and embarrassing months in the job.
The party, though, was left a laughing-stock and nearly bankrupt. And Nigel’s halo was hanging by a thread.
Without personal ambition and from an honourable sense of duty, Gerard Batten stepped into the breach and promptly raised enough money to save the party and force London Mayor Sadiq Khan to eat his spite-fuelled words. He appointed a new chairman and treasurer and new deputy leaders, and started to clear up Henry’s mess and steady the ship.
And as the party’s former Brexit spokesman, he ensured exiting the EU remained the party’s core issue and his personal priority.
But Gerard is also known as a proponent of free speech and a critic of Islam, although he will never countenance any form of Muslim-bashing.
In this context former Islamic extremist and founder of the Quilliam Foundation, Maajid Nawaz, draws an important distinction between Muslimophobia (hating Muslims as people) which is not acceptable, and Islamophobia (hating Islam the religion) which is. It’s a distinction that is vital in a democracy, and one that I suspect Gerard strongly supports.
When Gerard tweeted recently that ‘Islam is a death cult’, his Twitter account was immediately suspended and his free speech curtailed. But it’s a valid if contentious view about Islam that ought to be open for free debate, not closed down.
And indeed, if Gerard had instead described Christianity or Communism as a death cult, nobody would have batted an eyelid. Read for instance the extraordinary abuse that celebrity atheist Richard Dawkins heaps on the Jewish and Christian God in his best-seller, ‘The God Delusion’ – insults he repeats on stage and screen while chortling at his own cleverness. I’ve seen him.
And read the Winston Churchill or Ronald Reagan stinging critiques of Communism.
The blasphemy laws that protect Islam alone from criticism and that prevail in official circles and the media as well as on Twitter have caught others in their net too. Lauren Southern was banned from the UK as a result of the adjectives she applied to Islam’s Allah – adjectives that are much milder than those Dawkins applies to Christianity’s God.
And when Tommy Robinson held up a Quran on Piers Morgan’s Good Morning Britain TV show and said it is a violent and accursed book – which is virtually exactly what Dawkins says about the Bible – Morgan went apoplectic, the media went into meltdown and the show was referred to Ofcom.
More recently Robinson was banned from Twitter too. Gerard decided therefore to join his ‘Day of Freedom’ protest outside Downing Street on 6th May to speak up for free speech and the right to criticise Islam freely as we do other religions and ideologies.
Robinson is no saint and certainly he has in the past strayed into Muslimophobia which is utterly unacceptable. Muslims are our fellow citizens and deserve respect like everyone else.
But the aim of the protest was right so Gerard spoke powerfully from the platform. He also spoke at last weekend’s massive (and global) #FreeTommy protest after Robinson was suddenly arrested, convicted and jailed all within five hours at Leeds Crown Court.
Some party members are wary of the UKIP association with Robinson and the apparent tilt of the party towards the free-speech Right. Jim Carver MEP quietly resigned. Other members have emailed Gerard their concerns and anxious senior colleagues have no doubt spoken to him in private. That’s the right route, and I have little doubt the leader will take on board what they say.
But Nigel does party allegiance differently. He has toured UKIP branches openly criticising the association with Robinson and objecting to any anti-Islam stance – views that were rapidly republished on social and old media, see for example here in the Guardian.
Any private suggestions or quiet words of advice from the former leader to the current one? None. Instead it’s the Farage foghorn, sounded with the deliberate intention of stirring up party disunity.
Having nearly destroyed the party by foisting Henry Bolton on us, it looks like Nigel is having another go with his wrecking ball by publicly undermining the leader who rescued us from that disaster.
Yet he could instead do something really constructive and useful. Brexit is in crisis. He could follow the example of Gordon Brown during the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum. The former prime minister came out of political retirement, toured Scotland with a series of barnstorming speeches and, by various accounts, turned public opinion and saved the day. Nigel could do likewise for exiting the EU, and we’d love him for it.
Meanwhile his halo now lies in the dust and my hero has made himself zero.
If Nigel cannot show some loyalty to the party and its present leader, he should renounce his party membership and butt out.
Nigel in discussion with Peston on What Next (15th June 2018).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfj6MipMYaY
This is Nigel at his very best. (39:00 mins).
Brexit debate up to 24;00 then what next for Nigel and advice as to UKIP’s future 24:00 to 39:00
For me, Nigel Farage was very good at campaigning for the Brexit referendum which had the consequence of raising UKIP’s profile and increasing awareness of them, that was certainly what led me to start voting UKIP back in 2014. I think the problem with Farage though is that he was very much a ‘single-issue’ man, his life goal was to get the UK out of the EU, but beyond that I don’t think he had much appetite for anything else. While I don’t personally believe that his (and UKIP’s) job was done after Leave won the 2016 referendum, I think… Read more »
I think you pretty much nailed it Alan, Nigel has a place in history for bringing the Brexit referendum forward and nothing will ever diminish that achievement, I do have to say now though, Nigel stood by and did nothing, while Henry Bolton brought the party the brink of destruction, if Gerald Batten had not stepped in just in time it was game over. Nigel now knows he will never be allowed to become part of the establishment, but in the interests of a practical career, will never seriously challenge again it either.
BTW, and since three people have phoned me about this – for the avoidance of doubt, I continue to admire Nigel and to be grateful he’s there fighting our side in the European “Parliament” (sic – if only it were a pukka Parliament!) and on the airwaves. But my hero-worship gene was deactivated at birth. If one builds people into heroes, they often disappoint you. Your expectations of them are your expectations, not their expectations. It is your fault, not their fault. Nigel is human, with the foibles which come with being human. And though I here rumours he’s started… Read more »
Yes Freddy, I know that the destruction of UKIP is paramount to so many.
The new Farage- Mogg party has to be formed, and the conservative’s
must protect their party at all cost.
I used “Mohammedanism” because this is the word Gerard had used.
Maybe I should not hang onto his every word !
An excellent article
Most of UKIP are aware of Gerard’s feeling’s on Mohammedanism and halal ect, and those in the party with opposing views,
should have got him to step down, but no one had the guts to challenge him for the leadership.
Now there is a cowardly insider hatchet job going on, those of us who support Gerard Batten must speak up and be counted .
io, two points: 1. The re-infiltration going on is not aimed against Gerard in particular. Its aim is was it was before they prematurely abandoned ship. It is to shut down UKIP entirely, which will earn some a reward. Gerard is but collateral damage, a nuisance whose stubbornness and resourcefulness thwarted their previous attempt. Do not underestimate their audacity and boldness. The stakes are high. 2. Please don’t use “Mohammedanism” unless you intend to be insulting (but why?). “Islam” (= submission to god) is the correct term. “Christianity” is wholly appropriate because absolutely fundamental to Christian belief is that Jesus… Read more »
Thank you Freddy, I used the word “Mohammedanism” because this is the way Gerard has used it.
Maybe I should not hang on to his every word !
Yes I know, the destruction of UKIP is paramount.
Without this, the new Farage – Mogg party cannot be formed.
The article does not mention several potential returnees, who’d left prematurely, probably thinking “Mission Accomplished!”, who were shocked when Gerard and team rescued us from bankruptcy.
They pose an existential threat to UKIP.
A serious question for many of the people commenting their support for the new direction of the party under GB – what is the difference between these policies and those of the BNP? At least the BNP website actually has their policies clearly laid out (admittedly it is hard to find UKIPs policies to make a comparison, Gerard did issue a list of 10 action points before he was elected, which I can’t find anymore). And if that is the case, then why have a ban on people joining from the BNP? I hereby challenge anyone to ‘spot the policy… Read more »
Do the BNP except non white members ? I believe UKIP still do .
If you examine the record you will find NF said there COULD be another referendum, not that there SHOULD be; quite a difference!
I suggest you look at this, then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKGp-keeRS0
Nigel is a hero – he and UKIP got the referendum. But make no mistake – it was Vote Leave, headed up by Dominic Cummings, that won it. If Nigel and Arron had been in charge we would probably have lost 60-40.
Precisely.
Well I led the campaign in East Doset on behalf of UKIP to get us out and I worked with Vote Leave and they were a nightmare. Disorganised unreliable and rarely returned phone calls. The only good they were was that they provided me with the Vote Leave corex boards and I got them out into the community with the help of many UKIP supporters. I worked closely with my Conservative MP and we shared a platform at at around 10 public meetings and he had the same problem as did everyone I spoke to had deal with them. I… Read more »
Yes.
VoteLeave had a prime and a secondary objective:
Prime: Win Referendum
Secondary: Undermine UKIP, steal its members (often appealing to their baser nature) and sign them up as Tories
I cannot speak for all 641 Vote Leave constituency organisers but in my constituency the Vote Leave organiser (who was a Tory) did a good job – probably better than any of the local UKIP branch could have done. But all of us – whether Tories, UKIP or independents – worked together without friction for the common cause; there was a real sense of camaraderie. But at the national level Dominic Cummings was the main man – albeit with some crucial help from other key figures in Vote Leave. As I understand it (which may not be very well) there… Read more »
The the fact that there is a Cummings fan club is weird. Vote Leave was a total shambles, threw money around like confetti, had no idea what was going on on the doorstep and even sent out thousands of leaflets to be delivered on voting day as if anyone had any energy left. He thought he could run a national campaign as if it were a minor by election — the Cons used that early election morning trick in Newark and really really annoyed a lot of people, only managing to do it because they bussed in activists from elsewhere.… Read more »
Something to ponder on re .Nigel.
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/06/nigel-farage-if-dealing-with-islamic-fundamentalism-becomes-a-battle-between-us-and-the-entire-religion-well-lose
Harold Armitage. Thank you for that link. It confirms what I have always believed. Nigel Farage’s attitude towards Islam is that it is better to be a live coward rather than a dead hero. Farage is indeed Zero.
Thank you Alan for your comments and arguments. I suggest that when questioning Islam we have to be very careful as to how we do so and the language we use. I am not suggesting I know how to do it. But our enemies are not interested in carefully worked out logic and arguments. Expecting them to consider and accept the difference between Muslimophobia (hating Muslims as people) which is not acceptable, and Islamophobia (hating Islam the religion) is unrealistic, even if it has been suggested by a former muslim extremist and our enemies have massive support within the establishment… Read more »
John Scutter. You say “Expecting them to consider and accept the difference…..is unrealistic”. This was really the point I was trying to make when I said that I could not understand the difference between being anti-Muslin and anti-Islam. Actually I can very easily understand the difference in principle; It’s how you distinguish between the two in practice that I am not at all sure about. As you say, I doubt very much that Muslims would see the difference. And as for the courts distinguishing between the two, well, what do you think?
my feeling exactly, which is why I am still a member of UKIP and friend of Gerald Batten. I know them both very personally….
I have a high regard for Nigel. Without him we would never have had the referendum, or won it. I will be eternally grateful. He did make some mistakes. Everyone makes some mistakes – to err is human. We will (hopefully) get some sort of Brexit. Compromised and hobbled though it will be, it is better than nothing. Terrifying the Conservatives was the key to it. And destroying their side-kick Clegg was an important step too. I do actually want UKIP to succeed, but only if it faces the challenges of today (notably Islam) rather than resting on the laurels… Read more »
“Indoor voices”. A debate best had privately? Nigel was, is, and will always be,legendary. UKIP, under GB are becoming less ‘Nigel trading as’, and more an entity of their own. We, together with 17.4 Million PLUS, are being sold down the river. Let us focus on that. Many people who voted Remain that I speak to, respect the result and just want it sorted. We are their only voice. KEEP SHOUTING!
Nigel is a) too lazy to read the Koran and associated texts and b) has no idea of the scale and viciousness of the crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islam in Britain: the tens of thousands of white children (girls AND boys) raped and tortured across the land; the scores of racist attacks on white men each year; the daily acts of intimidation in Muslim-majority areas: the continual flouting of the law – epic benefit fraud, tax evasion, licensing scams, electoral fraud etc. And you know what? Even if he did know about all this, he wouldn’t… Read more »
“because he’s too afraid of being called a ‘racist’.” Utter rubbish Philip Duval, Nigel Farage has been on the tip of the spear for being called everything from Nazi to racist for decades. His family has also borne the brunt of his standing up alone to regain sovereignty. Plus he is not yesterday’s man. For whatever reason it’s a political battle he does not want to fight, but its not cowardice, lazines or whatever othe insult you have readily typed up for him. It’s fair enough for you to argue over his current relationship with UKIP, but attacking him personally… Read more »
You have certainly got a conversation going Alan. You must have said something right!
OK, may have jumped the gun a bit here. How long does moderation take at reasonable hours?
My original comment was marked as “Awaiting moderation” . I understand the necessity of this. It then disappeared altogether and I assumed that it had not passed moderation so I tried to re-express myself in more moderate terms.
My sincerest apologies if I have inadvertently upset anyone.
John.
Moderation of comments is undertaken by the duty editor of the day. I’ve told readers often enough that UKIP Daily is run by a tiny handful of volunteers who are sprinkled across the country. So if moderation of comments is sometimes slow – sorry, but tough. We have tried unmoderated comment systems which led to an invasion of online trolling, meaning that comment posts breaking our rules had to be removed after they’d been posted. a totally unsatisfactory outcome and as labour-intensive as pre-moderation. Btw – perhaps you’d like to join the team and become a duty editor, moderating comment… Read more »
And you are heroes doing it! Of course you can’t have unmoderated comments. That’s a Trojan horse.
Thanks for your support Mike. We do our best.
And as a correction to Viv’s comment – we duty editors/moderators are spread throughout the world!
“Btw – perhaps you’d like to join the team and become a duty editor, moderating comment posts to your satisfaction?”
Insert laughie smilie here.
JF
Why not, Julian? I spend a couple of hours a day moderating comments and a few more hours on a Sunday putting up posts when I’m duty editor. I know Viv is on the site almost full time but it doesn’t need too much of your time to mod comments. I’m happy to donate that time for the benefit of the party.
I hope the smilie is not laughing at us.
Laugh at the team that brings us more sensible news than all the MSM put together? Heaven forfend!
I was amused by the ‘put your money where your mouth is’ aspect of the reply. There’s a lot of ‘someone should do something about it’ going on, not just here but in the country as a whole.
Don’t blame me, I stood for UKIP. Five times.
JF
The Guardian link provided in the article is broken (the not uncommon “trailing fullstop” problem). Correct is: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/11/nigel-farage-wary-new-ukip-leader-gerard-batten-hard-right-stance I do not wish to comment on this UKIPDaily article itself, only on what is of considerable significance to UKIP still today but is *missing* from an article essentially about existential threats to UKIP, whatever its title says. The article, probably because its intelligent author has simply not had the data to join enough of the dots, does not mention a cabal who wilfully set out to limit UKIP’s effectiveness (“never allowed to succeed enough”) for years, and – once the Referendum… Read more »
I totally support Gerard Batten on his stance on Islam and his support for Tommy Robinson. His speeches at the Day of Freedom demo in London in early May and other venues were spot on and will be well received by disillusioned Labour Party voters who have been abandoned by Labour over the issue of Islamic influence in their party. Gerard Batten has appeared on many TV programmes which I have seen and has always come across as an impressive leader of our party.
I was a 100% committed Nigel Farage devotee. Even after he left the party I stood up for him, believing that he had a bad case of battle fatigue. Just recently, listening to his radio programme I have come to conclude that,once the battle fatigue was over, he must have realised that he had ‘blown it’. The ‘party’ was actually over for him and I think that he must have had a very painful time accepting that (although the adulation does still come to him from some of his callers) his time of opportunity has passed. Enoch Powell once said… Read more »
Sorry….I should have said…..When he resigned the leadership. Not…..When he left the party!
My reading of Nigel is that having won the Referendum it was a huge relief for him to give up the burden of leader of UKIP and hand the job over to someone who would carry on where he left off. I do not see any sign that he ever gave up on the cause. The succession of tried and failed leaders thereafter shows the magnitude of the task with which the leader of UKIP is faced. The current state of incompetent turmoil within British politics shows that far from having secured the UK’s exit from the EU anything is… Read more »
A lot of truth in what Alan says. Yes Nigel did an historic job getting UKIP to where it was and winning the referendum. But his departure after 23rd June 2016 made no sense and think on this: We all supported Nigel 100% during his time as leader, his job was UKIP, Brexit and we voted for him to be our MEP for the South East. With that taxpayers salary, was it right to go swanning off to the US and get involved in US politics? On LBC, Nigel isn’t fighting for Britain, he’s fiddling while Rome burns. He must… Read more »
I have to say that I too am deeply saddened, indeed appalled, at Nigel’s extraordinary behaviour since he abandoned ship after the referendum victory. I should add that, on top of his weird activities, already noted here by others, I see he has actually supported Tommy Robinson’s recent jailing, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk-KayOVoRk from minute 30:45 onwards. He says basically that it is Tommy’s own fault “The judge had no choice…”, and that Tommy was motivated by “reasons of self-publicity”…. Anything more dismissive and belittling would be hard to imagine. Well, I hope he watched the recent demonstration in London with thousands… Read more »
Sadly, Alan, you are right. Without Nigel’s endorsement the disastrous Henry Bolton would never have become leader, and if he cannot wholeheartedly support Gerard he should refrain from discussing Ukip at all. Nigel is wrong too to come over all politically correct on the matter of Islam. I believe in freedom of worship as passionately as I believe in freedom of speech, but anyone who is not Islamophobic is just not paying attention.
I can imagine the conversation in the Cameron camp on June 24th 2016. Basically in the words of our Prime Minister. Thats me out!, whoever follows me, please make sure you destroy that ******* (unprintable) Farage and whats more dont let UKIP have anything to do with the negotiating with that pr*ck Junker" In my opinion a quite expectable reaction, after all an anti establishment rebel had taken out a whole united remain parliament, government and Prime Minister and his "know best whats good for the hoi polloi grass roots rabble” Nigel had also made plain his intention to reverse… Read more »
I agree with you Alan , I think that we in UKIP, are like wasps buzzing around Nigel’s picnic table,
he cannot be seen to swat us ,but he wants us gone .
I totally support Gerard , yourself, and all of the team.
All the best , from me and mine.
> we .. are like wasps buzzing around Nigel’s picnic table,
> he cannot be seen to swat us ,but he wants us gone .
Let’s just pretend – for the sake of argument – that you are totally right.
What, rationally, would he then do? 😐
Well Freddy , his own thing I suppose , a la five star-kip with no wasp’s in his wine .
… is a wrong answer.
Oh no… Iv’e been Vachha.ed …. again.
# I like to be in America #
>> we .. are like wasps buzzing around Nigel’s picnic table,
>> he cannot be seen to swat us ,but he wants us gone .
> Let’s just pretend – for the sake of argument – that you are totally right.
> What, rationally, would he then do?
The right answer is that he would get some other people to swat us or get us gone.
Well, didn’t he try , his man Bolton come close too doing the deed.
This isn’t anything to do with Bolton. Bolton has been irrelevant since Friday January 12, 2018. The denouement, i.e. the NEC VoNC and the EGM six weeks later, were mere detail. The ones who desperately tried to keep him in place, ditching him only when they realised they could not prevail, who helped bankrupt our party while they swum freestyle to distance themselves from the awful mess they’d assisted in creating and then helped along, are still very much there, looking for the opening to complete the job they nearly managed since June 2016. Don’t worry, several clueless Regional Chairmen,… Read more »
> so in the wake of the catastrophic bankruptcy (even if we went over by £1 due to the imminent Warby ruling, there would have been an avalanche as subordinated funding loans fell due) they escaped any personal liability (civil) or culpability (criminal) for trading while insolvent.
“Charitable or philanthropic” indeed – the Judge could have slung whoever came up with that insulting BS defence (re escaping costs) into the court cells to reflect on whether they wished to retract the contempt. Luckily, Mr Justice Warby had a sense of humour, and didn’t.
Freddy, you have a way with words , and I don’t .
Hear, hear Alan, Nigel is the main reason for winning the referendum but I have absolutely no idea why he is stabbing every one of us in the back. Some very committed branch members would like him to go now. Either with us or #OutNow Mr Farage.
If ever an unbiased professional historian writes the history of our times (a big ask!) he/she will I believe acknowledge Nigel as the political figure of the most significance for two achievements: scaring Cameron’s tories into conceding the referendum and bringing out the mass vote for Brexit. As to the future, so long as we can avoid having a second referendum, which would surely be rigged ( otherwise why would the elites have it?) if we end up with a soft unsatisfactory Brexit, it will surely be possible to adjust future trading etc relationships unilaterally from our side as it… Read more »
Re. the recent (second) referendum. The first was back in the seventies.
Remainers believed the outcome was a forgone conclusion. They put up no sort of fight at all.
The was no political organisation for remain. People resented the gov.leaflet put through our letterboxes.
Alan worked on the campaign with David Kurten in Lewisham that, with the backdrop of Brexit being sold out, won a grand total of 380 votes. David is one of the highest profile kippers in London and as a member of the London Assembly has a lot of publicity and clout. And yet only 380 votes. What UKIP, and ex-UKIPpers need to do, is to come together, not fight like rats in a sack, oblivious to who put them in the sack and what battles are taking place outside the sack. Come together everyone, politics is a game of addition,… Read more »
Tacitus – if anyone wants to know why For Britain members won’t return to UKIP a visit to David Coburn’s twitter page would explain.
It’s no good, this would happen all the time. It’s why we left.
I want thinking about FB, more like Janice A, Wolfe, James, Bloom, etc
It’s not really a good idea to mix ‘bad apples’ in the sack with the good ones. Let different people with different views go different ways and stop trying to be ‘all things to all men/women’. I was just reading on ConHome website – “They make promises which they have no intention of delivering Neither Labour nor Conservatives will ever take us properly out of the EU If they support a real Brexit, there is no point voting for any of the Establishment Parties Arguably, there is no point voting at all The only way they will be listened to;… Read more »
My own feelings exactly, except……………
Muslims and Islam go hand in hand. Inseparable.
These people learn their cult book by heart down the local mosque and get refinement from the internet if not from “hate preachers” that seem to roam virtually at will.
Also Google taqiya.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx
If you had been born a Muslim, ‘arry – would you want me/us to hate you?
Nobody is born a muslim. You become one (by brain washing).
And have the option of leaving later.
However, apostates risk death, even from their own families.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/apostasy.aspx
What a nasty religion it is!
> Nobody is born a muslim. You become one (by brain washing). C’mon. Get real, Harold. You’re blaming 2-3-4-5 year old kids who are, as I stated, *born into* a religion? Note, as an atheist, it isn’t surprising that I believe that it is akin to child abuse to “bring up” a child in a religion. Any religion. Instead, try to convince them when the age of reason dawns (which for some may be, never). This isn’t done, because children brought up without religion will almost all grow up to be atheists. I wasn’t abused as a child, and I… Read more »
Ukip members voted for Henry in a fair monitored election. Nigel had one vote like the rest of us . Foisted on us ?
Barry – many members voted for HB because they trusted Nige’s recommendation. What a mistake to make.
The election was poorly executed. Too many names on the voting paper
Whoever got the job, there were going to be a lot that didn’t vote for him/her.
A recipe for disaster.
Yes, I know I’m gormless but I have never been able to understand the distinction between being anti-Muslim and anti-Islam. To me a Muslim is a believer in Islam and therefore they are two sides of the same coin. But, as I say, I’m gormless as no doubt the more enlightened on this site will gleefully agree.
I am a despondent rather than a glee monger will that do. The distinction might save you from doing bird, though it won’t protect you from a rolled up telephone directory phone book: Public Order Act 1986 – Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 Schedule — Hatred against persons on religious grounds 29J Protection of freedom of expression Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any… Read more »
Chris. Yes, thanks, I appreciate that you are detailing the relevant legislation to show the difference. But are you sure that the courts understand the difference? I certainly would not want to put it to the test. Would you?
Hello Peter UST; well I felt compelled to offer a distinction after your kind invitation. I would not expect the police to understand the ACT in the same way that I do. They may prefer to believe their is incitement or some other offence running parallel as well. Again the courts as well may make a different decision to the one I would deem more just. Even were one to escape at the court point, it would have caused untold misery in the duration. Such is their tactic. Simply to arrest, make miserable and some awful court procedure. Finally it… Read more »
Peter, you’re not the only one. I struggle with it too. Muslims support Islam ideology that wishes to conquer the world, and that to me means they are….what’s the right word…..synonymous? The fact that there are loads of them in this country is worrying enough, why would they be here if not to plan a takeover? I can’t cope with the hairsplitting.
Agree with you Peter. To me, the distinction is as spurious as trying to distinguish between God the father, God the son and God the Holy Ghost. You don’t get one without the other.
Peter, my interpretation is that Islam is an Ideology Muslims are people many of whom are not educated enough to read the Koran. They are born into the faith and cannot, dare not leave it. So myself and most people I know see a difference.
I am certain many would leave if they could. It’s the ideology that forces them to be Muslim.
It’s peer pressure. They’ll be ostracised from their families & friends, killed even in some circumstances.
Bingo.
This is why they are specifically forbidden from associating with non-muslims.
Their only peers are other muslims
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/friends-with-jews-christians.aspx
Bingo.
Adherents must be denied an external (i.e., non-Muslim) support structure. So shunning / ostracism will be terrifying.
All cults are identical in this respect. It isn’t just Islam.
Thankfully, most strands of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc. have long ago abandoned such inhumane methods.
Dee. If you read my original post again you will see that I did not say that I could not understand the distinction between a Muslim (person) and Islam (ideology) because that is clear enough. I said that I could not understand the distinction between being anti-Muslim and anti-Islam. Muslims are adherents of Islam and the adherents of Islam are Muslims. You cannot have one without the other. I really do not think that the fact that many Muslims are not educated enough to read the Koran (your words) makes any difference whatsoever. And if you care to read through… Read more »
Were King Philip IV and Pope Clement anti individual members or followers of the Knights Templar or were they anti the Knights Templar itself.
I would argue that their dislike was not personal. They simply for one reason or another disliked the order itself and sought to finish off the Templars as best they could.
Perhaps in there lies a distinction.
Hi Peter – maybe it’s the women, but I have listened to several apostate women who say they finally left after reading the Koran. I believe many recite it by rote, without understanding the full implications of the whole thing. And someone else says ‘no-one is born a Muslim’ – I think the reality is very different. Poison poured into their little ears before they can possibly understand it. The Koran/Hadith govern all aspects of life from birth, from praying to how you brush your teeth, even your milk teeth. You are certainly born into it, and leaving involves enormous… Read more »
Dee, agree with your last sentence.
All Muslims can read. (Even if it’s only Arabic)
They go to a madras (religious school) at a very early age where they must read (in Arabic) and memorise the Koran cover to cover.
Including the bits about killing Jews and Christians and other nastiness.
Harold, they recite the Arabic graphics on seeing them. They don’t actually read Arabic. You get points for being a reciter (hafiz).
Arabic is an alphabetic language not pictographic. (Eg like Chinese)
You can write anything in Arabic once you know the sound represented by the characters.
You can write English in Arabic. Just as you can write Arabic in English.
Muslims claim you only get the true meaning of the Koran by reading it in Arabic.
Ergo, English translation are inferior.
It’s one of the excuses they use,
A bit like the bible was only available in Latin at one time.
It gives the religious types power
I am aware of that Harold but children in both the UK and Pakistan for example will be reciting the Quran following instructions from the Imam on pronunciation given the imagery in front of them. They will not be aware of the word construction, diacritical marks etc since many children reciting the Quran in Pakistan will not even be literate in Urdu let alone Arabic.
They seem to understand them well enough to enact the directives laid out.
Plus most muslims are Arabs so it’s not foreign to them.
And they resist all attempts to censor it.
It’s far worse than “Mein Kampf,” why is it allowed in this country?
Don’t forget out own bible was in Greek/Latin originally.
Originally Hebrew, Aramaic and a common form of Greek ?
IANARP
Aramaic was a precursor to Arabic.
Jesus spoke Aramaic, he was a Palestinian not a Jew.
The New Testament came down to us in Greek written around 100AD
> in Greek
as in, the Koine.
Totally agree as you can see from my post below. They all read from the same book!
PeterUST, I don’t claim enlightenment. I guess I am anti-Islam (as in, re it spreading to control or adversely impact MY life, or those of people – or peoples – I care about). But I am certainly not anti-Muslim. I can’t conceive of ever being that. Except for a tiny proportion of converts, Muslims are Muslim because of the accident of birth. Many of whom I know who have doubts, reservations, resentment or even outright scepticism of hostility towards the tenets of the faith (some are closet agnostics/atheists) are simply wary or scared of letting others see this, because –… Read more »
Freddy, well said. I do try to be on friendly terms with the Muslims who I encounter. Of those who are nominal in their faith I often find that I have a more thorough knowledge of the Koran than they have. And it can shock them to find out what it actually states, rather than what they think it states. Apostates must be encouraged and supported. They can be the greatest critics of Islam for they know it from the inside. It is understandable that there is the death penalty for apostasy – because it undermines the cult. Even one… Read more »
Approx. conversation with a 30 yr old Middle-Eastern from more than 10 years ago – the subject was the third “wife” of the Holy Prophet (PBUH): Ms X: OMG… OMG… Me: Well, I used only your own paper copy of the Qu’ran and a Saudi website for Sahih al-Bukhari. Ms X: OMG… No… No… Me: But you must have known this before. Did you never think about it? Ms X: Well… Me: And moral standards were not that different 1300 yrs ago. Aisha’s father’s initial (horrified) reaction reveals this. Ms X: Yes. But my mum told me we MUST NOT… Read more »
Freddy, yes I have had similar conversations on this matter. And then go on to sex slavery “that which your right hands possess”, and see the results. Mostly they will have given up by that point. If not, bring up the topic of the Satanic Verses. No, not the novel of that name by Salman Rushdie (I tried reading it but it seemed so disjointed that I did not complete it) The Satanic Verses had been present in the Koran, but were subsequently removed when they were recognised as inspired by Satan. They described the three female goddesses, companions of… Read more »
Good comment Freddy,
What rubbish Malcolm, Henry Bolton was a DISASTER and a disgrace and well done the party membership for throwing him out forthwith.
We have first class leader in Gerard and I for one am delighted to have him. He is clear, calm and has a level head. I can’t think of a better man for this moment and I totally applaud him for supporting Tommy Robinson with Geert Wilders and Lord Pearson. We so need brave and clear sighted leaders like Gerald to take the party on to new relevance, who are not afraid. God bless Him.
Dead right Naomi.
To millions of people Nigel is Mr Brexit and always will be. Why has he been so destructive to UKIP since stepping down? Why did Paul Nuttall, deputy leader, and Steve Crowther, chairman, do so at the same time? Nigel could have briefed them after the end of a long day of recuperating sea fishing, his favourite hobby if he needed a break.. What’s the point of having a deputy if he doesn’t step up to the plate? To leave UKIP rudderless when from day one it was clear that Theresa May had surrounded herself with Remainers and had not… Read more »
Good comment and hope they have the plants identified and neutralised.
We are on the same page, Ceri.
Damn right Ceri!
It is absolutely the wrong time to criticise Nigel. What are you doing, have you turned to Remain Side?
Henry Bolton was a good candidate, excellent debater, said and did all the right things. It was a personal affair that was his undoing due to major attacks from the newspapers. UKIP achieved it’s objective and until we have a new objective we have to criticise the EU until we are out of it.
I believe Bolton was a plant. Put there to destroy UKIP. He very nearly succeeded.
He sounded wonderful on paper but all turned out to be lies.
There’s something dodgy about anyone who can come from being a Liberal to UKIP.
You can always tell the ditherer and incompetent when all they can think of is change the letter heading
Malcolm Shykles. No, it’s absolutely the right time to criticise Farage. He abandoned ship at the worst possible moment. And as for Bolton being a good candidate who said and did all the right things, are you being serious? No, no, no, there is a lot more to the Farage-Bolton business than meets the eye.
Spot on Peter.
You appear to be living in an alternative universe. During his spell as UKIP leader, Bolton did absolutely nothing, to the point of the party almost disappearing from the consciousness of the masses. It’s clear that the ex-Liberal Democrat and EU functionary was and Establishment stooge, his purpose being to kill off UKIP once and for all as a threat to the old Lib-Lab-Con order.
Henry Bolton was a nightmare as a leader of UKIP. He did not even do the day to day job work or any of the right things. Preparing for elections Increasing membership Holding the party together rather than splitting it UKIP’s finances and finding funders I gave him until Jan 2018 or Feb 2018 to show something anything and it was an empty shell of destruction. Had he done the decent thing and resigned before the NEC it would’ve saved UKIP and its members time, energy and another massive spend. For that I despise him. Criticising the EU will achieve… Read more »
Good article on the Ukraine fiasco.
Bolton said “We are not at war with Islam”. He’s happy for sharia to take over this country. He’ll be alright, he can escape abroad. Theres no evidence, that Ive yet seen, that Bolton even campaigned for Brexit. He’s a Liberal, not a Kipper. If he was true UKIP he wouldnt have threatened the party with legal action again and again, and he wouldnt have resigned when he was no longer leader. Good riddance.
Henry Bolton, an excellent debater. Are you serious. He was truly abysmal, what are you talking about. I had serious doubts about him before he stood as leader, but I have to admit he won me and others over at the leadership hustings, and I attended six or seven of them, because he was the only candidate saying the right things, and then after his successful leadership election, he returned to being ineffective and abysmal again. He was a major major let down for UKIP, and it will probably take years to recover, if at all. I feel terribly sorry… Read more »
I am fully behind Gerald Batten, I believe he has positioned the party just right.
Alan Craig
Alan thanks for the necessary and clear article, I would not describe Nigel Farage in hero to zero terms. He simply has a different strategic political viewpoint to Gerard Batten over that policy issue. That should not render Nigel Farage as being un-UKIP. His approach is just different and he is committed to it. UKIP should be broad enough to manage differences of viewpoints within the party. Although that is now more of a challenge for Nigel Farage than Gerard Batten. Nigel Farage is still talking for the UK to leave the EU. Am not sure Nigel Farage actually wanted… Read more »
I too respected Farage until he jumped ship after the result was announced, having earlier that day seemed to concede defeat. Now I think he is just a troublemaker and perhaps was not all he seemed Stalking horses come to mind and nothing, absolutely nothing, is beyond government in their acts of treason. As for the Muslims how does one differentiate between Islam and its followers? Islam issues the orders and Muslims carry them out. By definition a Muslim is a follower of Islam and we need rid of both the man and the mantras if our country is to… Read more »
I am along standing member of UKIP and love and loath Nigel in equal measure. There is no doubt as a front man he has done wonders for both UKIP and the cause of Britain’s withdrawal from the EU. However, behind the scenes he has been both divisive and destructive. His long running feud with the NEC stems not from their incompetence but actually the fact that they finally, after many years of compliance to his every demand, stood up for the members and refused to allow his ‘place woman’ to be top of the list in Wales, insisting that… Read more »
As a former member of the NEC I can confirm that the comments made by TSB Frog re the Place woman are correct. I would further add that another woman employee some years before was paid off with an agreement the terms of which were supposed to be confidential and a generous lump sum was paid on condition that she left UKIP totally. I was very surprised to see her employed, under another name, by UKIP MEPs a couple of years later. This nonsense was part of the reason why I resigned from the NEC as NEC members are actually… Read more »
Shocking. Thank you for being frank.
Well said, Adrianne!
How much money?
TSB Frog Very well said. Sounds about right to me.
Oh for God’s sake don’t be radical it’s so scary. Yadda yadda. The curse of UKIP. The reality is that the public are now becoming radical and anyone who is not will be left behind.
The results from Lewisham East last night suggest otherwise do they not ?
Good point Ian.
If you make an assumption of lots more votes for being non radical Ian. Do you think UKIP would have done much better by being non controversial? The reality is that small parties are seen as a wasted vote mostly. People vote for least worst of the big parties unless there is a big bandwagon effect and a political takeoff. After two years of internal division and futility there is not at the moment. There was a bandwagon for UKIP before then. The positive point is that all over Europe small populist parties like UKIP which seemed doomed by entrenched… Read more »
Mike : Ukip being “non radical” had 12 percent of the vote Ukip started being “radical” with the so called integraton agenda …. that dropped us to 6 percent Overnight! Gerrard and Alan double down with an anti LGBT and anti Islam agenda. Ukip LGBT chair resigns rightly in disgust . … branches collapse and activists are lost. …. Ukip on 2 percent of the vote. The full weight of the party machine gained Three Hundred and Eighty votes in lewisham East . Let me say that again 380 votes …. beaten into sixth place Now obviously there has been… Read more »
What would you like UKIP to stand for Ian? Lewisham is placed in a city whose population is now increasingly and largely foreign. It’s not a barometer of the country. But even if it were radicalism does not offer instant results. But it lays the ground for going somewhere. Simply being another more or less mainstream party is like being the Lib Dems. A mainstream alternative which supporters of the other two occasionally vote for as a mild nudge but with no future beyond that. UKIP has everything against it at present. It’s lost the Brexit bandwagon effect and has… Read more »
To Mike Newland
Yes, you’re right. There is definitely a groundswell of “populism”. And that is a good thing. Possibly the only thing that will save this country from destruction.
UKIP must be radical, it is who we are and how things get changed.
I too, wonder what now motivates Nigel? My ‘gut’ feeling, without supporting evidence, is that he has been ‘got at,’ personally, family or both, I don’t know. But his change of demeanour is clear and unsettling to those of us thought he was Britain’s saviour. Perhaps the Managerial Forces mentioned in Alistair Heath’s article in yesterday’ Daily Telegraph are even more powerful than he describes, and a malign influence is exerting pressure on Nigel. The apparent veering off course of Nigel’s long held political sense of direction is alarming to me, and many others I speak to. Nigel’s charisma and… Read more »
Could be money. No MEP salary soon and needs to be part of the system to make a good living.
Somebody like Nigel Farage need never be poor. He is possibly the most famous man in the world. If Bliar can get five figure sums for a speech,I’m sure Nigel could.
I believe he was just fatigued by the effort and pressure and needed a rest.
He may yet return.
Harold he need never be poor provided he remains within the window of just about acceptability to the mainstream power structure. Go outside and no big money will be on offer. And no LBC job for sure.
A lot of truth there Ernie. Subtle pressures are applied to prominent people who step out of line to the globalist plan, they are slowly turned. For example, the Tory traitors (they’re not ‘rebels’) genuinely believe in their ’cause’, they have been turned and they believe it so passionately, they will refuse any logic and any issues of loyalty to party, country or their electorates. So we need to hit them hard. Nigel is a lost cause now, he’s lost the plot, forgotten what matters, if he cared, he walk away from LBC.
Money
Spot on Alan. But he won’t. Which has the (probably intended) effect of ensuring that many cannot trust UKIP with the future of the country enough to rejoin. I include myself. And if we can’t, the logical answer is to co-operate – Gerard and Anne Marie – so that we stand a single candidate in each constituency and don’t split the vote. I keep saying it. No one listens. I’m afraid the foghorn, the platform of LBC and the fact that the general public don’t realize all this means that if you don’t want to co operate, not just with… Read more »
Dee, great point about not splitting the vote which I have also made many times but “they” choose not to listen. Time to suppress their egos and get on with it. Someone has to make the fisrt move so why not UKIP?
UKIP will not be able to singlehanded change the outcome of next GE and save the Brexit. As ruling establishment with success uses divide et impera, we need to create a great coalition of all parties and entities that wish to fulfil results of the referendum, with a pure aim to achieve just this. If freethinkers are like cats – we need to build a pride.
As per Nigel – I highly recommend reading about Lech Walensa polish freedom fighter, peace Nobel laureate, elected president and apparently a secret employee of polish politic police during a communistic regime.
UKIP has contested Lewisham East for the past five elections if not longer. For Britain should have stood aside not UKIP.
Absolutely; that is the whole point of a strategic alliance. Maybe there are other constituencies where For Britain could be the better choice but nothing will happen without that alliance to get us the exit from the EU that we voted for. Other matters need to be set aside until that prime objective is achieved as nothing else, however necessary, can be done whilst we are shackled to the EU.
Good post Dee. Let’s hope after Lewisham Gerard and Anne-Marie can work something out because Islam isn’t going away anytime soon and after we ‘leave’ next year it will be the number one issue in this country.
Dee, the vote was not split, rather nibbled from underneath.
Neither candidate achieved a campaign that motivated the voters of labour stronghold LE.
Now is not the time for a UKIP v2. If people want to jon UKIP fine, if not its a shame, but fine too.
UKIP just needs to get on with its own job of increasing its membership, managing its finances and gaining votes with credible policies.
I was happy to be instructed by the outcome of this bye-election, especially given the 0.15% odds of it being a constituency AMW contested before and had history with.
I renain in regular contact with members of the D&V party and of For Britain.
We are all entitled to our views on whether we like muslims or not. Do not put words into our mouths or tell us what to do! If I hadn’t rejoined, I wouldn’t after reading that!
Agreed. As an atheist I’m happy to live 5 minutes from a church and hear the lovely musical traditional bells every Sunday morning, but I’m blowed if I want to hear some ghastly screaming man shouting through a loud speaker from the roof of a mosque 5 times every day. And I guarantee you that even the most pro muslim/islam politicians in this country, including May and Corbyn, wouldn’t live within hearing of that alien racket either, so why should I have to?
I find great difficulty in separating islam and muslims who follow to the absolute letter the writings in their cult rule book and I am afraid that that includes most if not all muslims.
OK, see if this passes moderation, if not, there is no point in renewing UKIP membership.
There is no distinction between Christianity and The Bible (New Testament). They are inexorably linked, without Christianity you do not have The Bible, without The Bible you do not have Christianity.
Whatever you do though, do not apply this to another religion.
> OK, see if this passes moderation, if not, there is no point in renewing UKIP membership. ?? 1. I see nothing in your comment which could possibly be objected to even in PC-mad Britain. Now I disagree with you, on the grounds that most believers inseparably link their religion with its “holy” book(s) – or perhaps I don’t understand your comment, but I don’t object to it, and even if I did – so what? You’ve every right to express your opinion! 2. Clarification: Moderation here is nothing to do with UKIP. UKIP Daily is not a mouthpiece of… Read more »
I always thought that his endorsement of Bolton had another motive,that was to kill off UKIP so he could have a new party backed by Banks and with himself as leader. Then he would not have to deal with the NEC and be supreme,but his plan went of the rails when Bolton was dismissed. I like you now see that Gerard is doing the job plus widening what UKIP stands for,some may not like it but I notice that when he took over membership was hovering under 25,000 now it is up to 34,000 and rising so he must be… Read more »
Thanks Grumpy for the information on membership, I have been asking for weeks how things have been progressing on that front – how have you got that information?
I would have thought it is in our interest to trumpet good news, although it doesn`t look as though we are making much inroads into the 16,000 VATs who were supposed to be on the table
I would be interesting to see how much of the rise in membership is down to the return of ex-members or totally new members. Hopefully the latter, as most of the people I know won’t countenance joining or re-joining whoever is leader. Enough seems to have been more than enough. The Lewisham East by-election, result seems to bear this out .
Dont believe that for a minute! I was told by an Organiser only last week that membership is down to 20,000
I am afraid that you may well be right. If the memberships were going up in leaps and bounds we would be told about it. However nobody in authority will commit themselves on this subject. What I do know, is that my own branch last year had 147 members which is now down to 69 members. Yes, we have had two new members join, one of whom re-joined the party after 10 years of so and the other from DFLA. However one has to temper this with the 78 members that we have lost. Having knocked on every members door… Read more »
Does anyone really know or are systems so shambolic that the instant availability of that number is not possible? How else can the disparity between the quoted figures occur?
That raises more questions than it answers, like the character and true motivation of said organiser. Also why you immediately give some credence to it and why without any reason you mention it here!
Any kipper could invent an unlimited number of demoralising/,destructive statements such as this and (like a Bolton supporter for example) do great damage.
Anyway I’m sure if it was true the MoS or Mirror would have told us already!
I would suggest you have a strong fatherly word with your informer and re-,evaluate their credibility.