UPDATED WITH INFO BY LUKE NASH-JONES, AS DEMANDED IN COMMENT POSTS
After a couple of months of inertia and public ridicule caused by the Bolton fiasco I was getting confident that a new openness and trust was developing between the organisations and factions within UKIP that would, in time, again make the party a viable choice come election time.
A moderate libertarian-leaning party will always, by dint of the nature of its membership, have a fair number of gadflies and loons and I suspect that eccentricity and the fun it brings makes the otherwise dour nature of political debate more palatable to many of the party faithful.
Without individualism, there can be no original thought. On this site, on Kipper Central and MBGA, protagonists can and do engage in robust debate, but generally, we all have a common core of unwritten values, mores and rules that we stick to.
We don’t use foul language, we don’t engage in ad-hominem attacks and we are tolerant of people’s religions, sexuality and political beliefs, whether we agree with them or not.
As such UKIP has a clause within its rules which proscribes current or past membership of certain political groups that are either blatantly racist, encourage violence or are extremely intolerant.
The demographic profile of UKIP, as evidenced by my MK I eyeballs at the Birmingham EGM, is quite old and quite conservative – with a small ‘c’. The vast majority of the 1500 who turned up did so because they had something to say and had something to do about the Bolton fiasco. They made the effort and spent good money to travel to Birmingham precisely because they felt that the unwritten rules of play were violated by Bolton/Marney and they wanted it sorted out. Old rivals shook hands and slapped backs, faces were put to names, there was a sense of unity and camaraderie which often comes out of near fatal conflict. It was a new beginning.
I would bet, given the demographics I refer to, that most the 1500 remember aspects of the Second World War and its aftermath. Some even lived through it. Some – I spoke to a couple – even were the offspring of refugees who fled from Germany. I would bet that out of that good 1500 only a tiny fraction would ever countenance even flirting with any other person or political group that worships Nazism – because they have experienced the consequences.
Late last year, the YI had to cancel its conference, at short notice, because it feared attacks by ‘Antifa’ due to the fact it had invited a certain Martin Sellner, leader of the “New Right” Identitarian Movement of Austria, as speaker. The leaders of YI protested loudly that their rights of Free Speech were interrupted, they blamed the Police for not protecting them. The usual ‘It’s the MSM trying to shut us down!’ shouts were expressed and repeated by a few commentators on this site trying to justify that meeting. It was a meeting that never should have been organised in the first place.
Since then YI has contributed to the UKIP movement by energetic use of social media and there have been encouraging signs that lessons regarding mass communication techniques can be learned from them. So, imagine my shock when on Thursday night I received a communication telling me that YI were reconvening their meeting, at a place yet to be disclosed, where the key speaker is again Martin Sellner!
Make no bones about it, Sellner is an out and out Nazi, a white supremacist who is well known in Europe and idolised by fools here. I asked Luke Nash-Jones, editor of MBGA, for some intelligence and reproduce his answer verbatim, with his kind permission:
“I turned down Young Independence’s request that I finance this event. There are many good, passionate Britons who challenge political correctness, and would make a fine speaker – so why on earth are YI paying for this Martin Sellner to come to the UK for a jolly?

Investigating newly arising political groups to see which the People’s Charter Foundation should and should not work with, I spoke to Generation Identitaire’s management in Europe, and found that they strongly dislike me for my rejection of their core belief. They promote white supremacist ideals that they hide under a banner of “ethnopluralism”. Basically they support racial apartheid. They are former Nazis who’ve rebranded for good ‘optics’ as the European equivalent to the US white nationalist Richard Spencer.
When I said I’d sooner have a black man like Kurten, who loves our culture, as my neighbour, than a white Marxist like Corbyn, they just kept going on about ethnic purity: they use ethnicity to refer to race.
UKIP is lost post-Brexit, because it was formed by city boys who wanted to leave the EU, to escape the economic protectionism, so they can flood Britain with cheap imports for a quick buck. They played the immigration card, but they don’t really want to close our borders. Meanwhile, others who’ve joined UKIP since, want more, but there is a continual, horrendous failure to find a healthy, sensible populist message. Either UKIP sits around doing nothing, or talks only about Islam. Meanwhile, a lunatic fringe of UKIP’s youth wing have some weird Nazi fetish, running pathetic secret Facebook groups.
UKIP needs a full, proper broad populist message, talking about the need to stop outsourcing jobs (raise import tax), the need to cut migration, the need to reduce house prices, and very crucially, the need to challenge cultural Marxism, the ‘soyboy’ culture.”¹
I have made the point, often, on this site and elsewhere, about the dangers of the fetishism of Fascism. I understand the attraction … As PJ O’Rourke once said:
“No one has ever had a fantasy about being tied to a bed and sexually ravished by someone dressed as a liberal”²
But YI has an unhealthy obsession with the so-called Alt-Right, and I sense it has more to do with fashion and sexual fetishism than it has to do with politics. It’s the school that breeds Jo Marney and all that that brings. It’s the school of leader-worship and political uniforms and it’s a road that leads to political oblivion.
I don’t normally do censorship but I implore the NEC and Gerard Batten, if they can’t dissuade or stop it, to disassociate UKIP from this meeting which is due to take place in just over a week. Failure to do so will bring the press and media down on the party like a ton of bricks and put UKIP in the public eye for all the wrong reasons.
Please…
Don’t Let the Kiddies Play with Matches.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1) Luke Nash-Jones to Kevin Baverstock and Viv Evans, private correspondence.
2) Attributed to PJ O’Rourke
Ed: While UKIP has always stood for Free Speech and abhors the Left’s “No Platforming”, this invitation is bound to deliver ammunition to the MSM and the Left Groups who delight in smearing UKIP as akin to the proscribed BNP. The points raised by Mr Bav and Luke Nash-Jones in the article above need urgent, further debate.
I’m closing the comments because they have sunk to ad-hominem attacks and threats – and nothing new or pertinent has been posted for some time.
There will be an article by myself tomorrow dealing with this.
Keith,
Personally, I would have admired AMW’s to have remained in the party with her supporters and fight back to prove them wrong, but she did not, she did a ‘runner’ as did JRE’s, not an admirable facet to have I would say. Now their movements are struggling to get recognised and AMW’s cannot even hold public meetings, she should have stayed in UKIP to clear her name and those of her supporters that followed her, I think they could have achieved much more IMO.
Dee, well said.
We cannot afford to be divided.
All this finger pointing, and the unfounded accusations are really unhelpful.
We may have as little as 12 years remaining, before the point of no return. Beyond that, it will be impossible to reverse the Islamisation of the UK.
No two people or organisations will be in 100% agreement on every minute detail of policy. However if we can be broadly in agreement on the most significant aspects then that will have to do.
Dee,
I am not sure that should Gerard offer a post to Anne Marie she would accept it now, the only way to find out is to do it, as you say he was willing to accept her supporters back which seems a bit strange, either you agree with her or not. Personally, I think if it was me I would give it a go but I don’t know what pressure he is under by donors etc, so it is easy for me to sit here and say these things, as it is for anyone else.
AMW was caught on camera by ITV only last September ( but broadcast on Nov 4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IM4wtEr4No
Also see this
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2017/10/22/waters-sellner-speak-traditional-britain-group-conference/
Mark Collett is ex BNP/ ) and Jack Buckley is ex BNP and was AMW’s campaign manager during her leadership bid. The picture attached is Mr Collett , AMW’s mate, with his one-time girlfriend who calls herself ‘Eva Van Housen’ (real name Jenna Smith, but thats not so…..Aryan….? )
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/05/neo-nazis-and-far-right-extremists-are-hijacking-vote-leave-5924885/
Now you tell me if you really think AMW didn’t notice that subtle tattoo?
Well.
I’ve been out all day.
I’m glad that this article has stimulated some debate.
All very healthy.
Luckily we are not under the Nazi yoke otherwise nobody could say anything..
Keep Buggering On !
Night all !
Mr Bav
There’s a lot of things I must do Hugo.
I must make myself a large cup of coffee.
I must go out for my 5 mile Sunday walk and get some healthy fresh air after being snow bound.
And then I must make breakfast, read the papers, do my chores and then, perhaps start writing my next paper, called “Queer as Volk” which seeks to examine the strange fetishist links between repressed homosexuality, hyper-masculine posturing, fashion, racism, anti-semitism, postmodern far-right ‘identitarian’ youth organisations, and the Nazis.
Like Sellner.
Luke, you wrote:
“Hugo, what a weak excuse to try to silence free speech – this article revealed your hero for what he is, so you want it censored.”
This is libelous against me.
This is an interesting read:
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/article/2017/04/25/encounter-europes-new-right-wing-activists
Partucularly: “Shortly after we meet Martin points out the Identitarians have sued an Austrian TV channel for calling his group Nazi, a warning that we should be careful with our language.”
A very interesting article, Rob, but see also the follow-on article https://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/story/dateline-europe-special-young-hip-and-far-right
from which I quote:
“Andreas [Peham] believes Martin and others in the Identitarian movement had their core political values shaped by those in neo-Nazi groups. He refers to photos and other documentary evidence, including a photograph from 2008 where Martin is pictured with a prominent face of the far right, Gottfried Küssel, who is currently imprisoned on charges of Nazi revivalism. In Austria, Nazism is illegal under constitutional changes made after the Second World War – which were enacted to begin the process of de-Nazification.”
Read that, too, Viv, but 2008 was 10 years ago… I wonder if he won his case?
Actually what that article reminds us of is that the Nazis believed that they were members of an innately superior Aryan race or put another way: if you are not a racial supremacist like certain Asiatics I can mention who believe they are entitled to control our public discourse, then you are not by definition a Nazi so stop bandying this term around, please against those who simply believe that we are entitled to our own living space without which we will simply cease to exist.
Lebensraum
Thanks for this link Rob it gives us a much clearer picture of the nature of the Identitarians.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable Sun Tzu
I have had, in the distant past, NEC members have Messrs. Olswang discuss libel with me, so know a little about it and share your concerns…
Thanks for the update and the photos, Luke.
Welcome. So much information at everyone’s fingertips on Google. Please look guys, then this kind of needless embarrassment can be avoided!
“So much information at everyone’s fingertips..”, yet you seem unable to provide a link to back up your assertions.
What are you on about? This isn’t a question of what someone can say in public – it’s a private event at a private venue, and the choice of respect reflects the organisation.
Indeed. “Supporting the right of free speech” simply means to be against LAWS that CRIMINALISE certain forms of expression. It does not mean that one has to listen to, patronise, publicise, or in any way welcome, let alone give material support (e.g. funds, or organisational support) to, expressions with which one does not agree. Freedom works both ways.
Perhaps I should qualify the word “one” above, by replacing it with “a private individual or body”. We hear of “no-platforming” imposed by University authorities – public bodies – against meetings critical of Islam while allowing meetings that preach radical Islam. This is reprehensible.
Apart from the links to Kipper Central and MBGA I cannot see any links to referenced material in the updated article.
It is helpful for the reader to be provided with links to the relevant source material. See this example:
https://www.ukipdaily.com/human-rights-v-islam/
Yes, after six hours I’m still waiting for any evidence from Mr. Bav or Luke Nash-Jones that Martin Sellner has said anything as the leader of the Identitarian Movement that would lead any reasonable person to conclude he is “an out and out Nazi”, as Mr. Bav claims.
Unless/until such evidence is shown to exist, I think the Editors should amend or take down this article. If there is no such evidence, “Sellner is an out and out Nazi” is libellous.
The article has two photos. What’s wrong with you? How can you think it is ok for people to run actual Nazi websites? Are you mad? We do not use the word lightly – we objected when Farage called AMW a racist, while most of UKIP was still licking his backside! Don’t you dare suggest we randomly use this word! Sellner is a white nationalist who wants non-whites deported – this is VERY well-known. You need to do proper research on these matters you reckon you are the expert on. Goodness sake!
I’m challenging you or Mr. Bav to produce evidence, IN MARTIN SELLNER’S RECENT SPEECHES OR WRITINGS, that he is “an out and out Nazi” as the article claims. On the present showing, it appears you can’t, in which case this article is libellous.
Luke, the two photos do not match what you are telling us. I cannot see any swastikas. I cannot see any Nazi salutes. I cannot see any uniforms with jackboots.
If something is very well known you should be able to provide us with hyperlinks to the relevant articles/videos/photos/interviews.
You are the one who is making these accusations, and so the onus is upon you to provide the solid evidence. Yes I can use Google, but that is beside the point.
Mr Bav makes the point that many of those present at the EGM will remember the war or its immediate aftermath. I remember that mono-cultural England as well. What is certain is that most of those present will not be around in 50 years time to see the further consequences of our allowing our mono-culture to be replaced with a multi-culture and and to accept the removal of our freedom of speech. It is up to YI who will be around in 50 years time to gather evidence to decide how to be successful where we have so disastrously failed.
Excellently summed up, Stout ( although I disagree about the Joan of Arc complex!)
I agree with Dee good comment.
Sound words DD.
With reference to Jack T on tolerance and Islam, it may be worth recalling what philosopher Karl Popper had to say in 1945: ” The paradox of tolerance says that unlimited tolerance will lead to the death of tolerance – Defending tolerance includes being intolerant of intolerance”.
Islam’s assertion that it is the ONLY religion and the whole world must be subject to it by force, if necessary and its insistence on death for apostasy, surely puts it squarely in the box of “intolerance” against which tolerance should be defended.
Replying to Luke below.
I had not heard of Martin Sellner before reading this article, and so he can hardly be my hero.
All I am asking from you is properly linked to articles etc to back up your claims. Is that not unreasonable?
Once I have seen the evidence on which you are basing your claims, then I will be able to form a view either way.
Viv, I absolutely see your point – but it is a dreadful state of affairs when Antifa and HnH are allowed to foster a climate that seems to mean – ‘even if we haven’t actual proof (though there may be some) we had better not invite someone speak, so that we can decide for ourselves – because we shall be accused of being something we aren’t’.
One might ask, and I freely admit I don’t know, has the same happened to Mr. Sellner?
Hi Viv from a slightly warmer than yesterday bit of Wales, I absolutely see your point – I have listened to a few Selner interviews, found nothing to disagree with – but there may be something undiscovered by me somewhere, so will do.
Thanks for how to Tweet advice, although I can’t ‘hover’ on an iPad I don’t think – but if anyone can’t hover either, it’s fairly simple to email the article to oneself then copy to Tweet.
Hugo, what a weak excuse to try to silence free speech – this article revealed your hero for what he is, so you want it censored. You are reading this online blog, so you have access to Google, where there is lots of info on Sellner’s Nazi activities, and the blog articles references some.
Googling HnH brings up “high and horny”, “HNH Corporate Finance”, “Herne Hill Railway Station”, “HNH Cosmetics”, port of “Huanghua”, and so on. Which of these is it?
Good grief – have you never heard of ‘Hope not Hate’, abbreviated to HnH? Really?
?? (merited, methinks!)
Ooooo I’ve just twigged — its the first one, isn’t it? Shows how innocent I am. I just don’t know about some of these things.
Chris
A really interesting point, one I’d never even thought of, butcorrect.
Fully agree with Mr Bav
MSM will have a field day in smearing the Party.
YI must be smarter than this.
Luke Nash-Jones,
This is helpful information and put the YI dilemma article by Mr Bav into deeper perspective.
Good points.
Rob McWhirter,
If the content of LN-J’s statement is correct then a whole section of YI should be investigated and potentially expelled from the party.
Will this comment be acted upon by UKIP leaders Rob ?
It sounds as/ more serious than the issue the article was on about.
Rob McWhirter.
Is this claim by Luke Nash-Jones about YI being investigated by UKIP leaders.
Surely any members engaging in such dialogue should be expelled if this is found to be the case.
Mr Bav, could you please provide links to any speeches or writings by Martin Sellner which demonstrate your claim? The onus is upon you to do so, not upon others to go hunting around to try to prove a negative.
On a number of occasions when handing out UKIP leaflets I was accused of being a Nazi. My response was that my father served in the RAF during the war against the real Nazis. My accusers never had any real response to that.
There is clear photographic evidence in the article, and if that isn’t enough, Google has plenty.
( I am totally against the death penalty )
The state has no right to take a life so informed opinion holds.
90% of the political establishment are against the death penalty yet curiously they didn’t mind sending troops to Iraq knowing full well this would end in tens of thousands of civilian deaths. The Arab Spring fully supported by the moralising liberal capital punishment hating West also resulted in tens of thousands of civilian deaths (maybe more in Syria).
The state moralises on the taking of a single life but not tens of thousands.
Jake Bennett – I agree with your view about the deaths at the hand of the Labour Government involvement in Iraq.
Mr Bav in the comments on his article “dead in a day” proposes a different foreign policy which I agree with.
https://www.ukipdaily.com/dead-in-a-day/
“doctrine of strong self -defence and a strict non-aggression policy. That policy, for example, would mean that we would most definitely not be involved with middle eastern conflicts except in the case if it affected British security directly. No ventures or policing in Africa either.”
MBGA, VAT, FLA, LNJ, SoyBoy, that frog thing? Pardon?
What exactly was your response all about?
I have spent much of my life reading poorly written technical programmes. Education, education, and so on.
It does not have to be perfect grammar, but it does have to understandable.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pepe-the-frog
Biscotte (plus if you had clicked on the (two hyperlinks I provided in the comment, it would have taken you to the MBGA
video in question. Similarly, I provided further down a hyperlink to the meeting between Gerard Batten and the VAT-FLA
in a pub where they both enjoyed drinking a pint of what looked like lager.)
Biscotte,
MBGA was referred to in Mr Bav’s sensible main article with a link each time in paras 2 & 10
In paragraph 10 he explains Luke Nash-Jones is the Editor for MBGA.
I agree with Mr Bav’s final statement that if against advice the YI organised meeting goes ahead UKIP
should distance (dissasociate) itself in advance of the meeting.
disassociate
not dissasociate
“we are tolerant of people’s religions” Up to a point I am tolerant. I exclude Islam in all its forms so I guess that I might be barred from UKIP if I were to decide to join…
So you didn’t read the paragraphs in that article from Luke Nash-Jones? Who describes that he’s researched Mr Sellner?
Why don’t you do some research and show us that Mr Sellner is a nice man with no connections to old and Neo-Nazis?
Your’e on the internet – you can do the research and tell us what you find!
Jack Russell, to be fair to “Keith”, he did not make the assertion.
Generally it is better for Mr Bav to provide the evidence rather than
“believe me, Luke Nash-Jones says so”.
Besides we know that Mr Bav is first class at gathering evidence.
In this case, I suspect that LNJ is correct in his opinion.
However it would be helpful if some evidence was provided rather than say
“Keith look it up for yourself”
The article has two photos. What’s wrong with you? How can you think it is ok for people to run actual Nazi websites? Are you mad? We do not use the word lightly – we objected when Farage called AMW a racist, while most of UKIP was still licking his backside! Don’t you dare suggest we randomly use this word! Sellner is a white nationalist who wants non-whites deported – this is VERY well-known. You need to do proper research on these matters you reckon you are the expert on. Goodness sake!
Luke Nash-Jones,
If your comment was meant for my post, which it is not clear that it is,
your copy and posted generalised post makes no sense and has
no relationship with what I have written.
Randomly scanning through posts and copying and pasting
your one comment, which mentions licking peoples behinds
anywhere near my post-comment is behaviour which belongs elsewhere.
Perhaps I misjudged you when I (repeatedly) suggested UKIP should have you running communications.