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Letters to the Editor – Saturday 9th September 2017

It’s now three weeks and counting until we finally know who the new Leader will be. The ballots have gone out, and since many members are still pondering whom to vote for, we’re publishing two “election” letters today. The first is from our correspondent ‘citizenkain’:

Sir,

Hey-Ho it’s off to vote we go!

Friday 8th September 2017 I return home for a break from work to discover my voting pack has arrived.

Firstly thanks to Roger Dudding for paying for the printing of the UKIP magazine “Independence” and thus allowing for the candidate statements. Secondly thank-you to all the staff in Newton Abbot HQ for all the background work necessary for the leadership election to progress with quiet efficiency.

I am impressed by the totality of the candidate statements and instead of being a weakness the existence of 10 ‘entrants’ shows the possible talent and range of abilities within UKIP. I know that three of them have withdrawn and that their names are not on the accompanying ballot paper. Regular readers of ‘Daily UKIP’ will know my partisan views and sometimes my acerbic comments but I pen this letter in an act of conciliation and celebration of UKIP’s survival and I wish to commend all the candidates for their personal commitment to UKIP and their enormous contribution by standing for the top position (this includes David Allen who withdrew a couple of weeks ago).

Sheffield forges made some of the best steel in the world by quality iron ore and anthracite from the Blackband, in white hot Blast Furnaces. It is this crucible of heat that tests the ability to forge great metals. In the same way the heat of this election , so much better than previous recent elections, has led to a real contest and a range of quality views and policies that would do justice to any serious political party.

One of the hopes I have for this election is that no-one is excluded from a cabinet of the talents that should invite all of them to continue with the important debates inside and outwith the party. Putting aside my personal preference and the vote I shall make I am aware of the membership of UKIP and the dominant profiles of ‘typical members’. This leads me to believe that it will be very close and for brevity’s sake I shall only name the leading four.

Well done David Kurten you have an exciting and rewarding career within UKIP and long may you serve as a LAM; your value in the field of Education must be recognised.

Aidan Powlesland you may not win the contest but some of your ideas are brilliant and it would be sensible to have you involved in Economics debates.

Henry Bolton you are going to do very well and I hope that should you win you will recognise the concerns particularly of UKIP voters in labour strongholds who are desperate for a radical alternative to the lies and deceit of the corbynistas.

Anne Marie Waters you have my vote and my hopes and dare I say it my prayers. I know that notwithstanding the declaration of the result in Torquay that you will continue the fight for our people and our country. The dangers that Britain, and Europe face are too big to go away and will need great resolve.

Last but by no means least John Rees-Evans. You have a brilliant future ahead of you and may each day aid you in your fight for truth and justice. Were I going to vote based solely on the Candidate’s Statements in ‘Independence’ then you would have my vote. To me the Bill of Rights is fundamental to our Island Story. Good luck Sir.

Best regards to all members and may the best candidate win.

Respectfully, Citizenkain, proud UKIP member and supporter of UKIP for 8 years

Today’s other “election” letter is from our contributor and reader Jack Russell:

Sir,

I’ve followed the debate in these pages as to who should be the next Leader of UKIP: articles, letters, comment posts, hustings reports: the lot. I’ve watched the online videos of the hustings as far as they were available. After all, if we bemoan that so many voters in GEs and local elections neglect to inform themselves, then it behoves us UKIP members to give a good example and use the info available to us before voting, especially as there’s not one candidate who hasn’t told us that this election is make-or-break for UKIP.

But what I’ve seen and learned was stunning – in a bad way. I never expected to find this sort of partisanship (“if you vote/don’t vote for XYZ you’re a bad person, have understood nothing and should leave the Party”) in UKIP. We’ve always prided ourselves to be independent-minded, to not follow the herd. Now it seems that many, in their partisanship, have closed their minds and are not even willing to listen to what other candidates have to say. Neither do they scrutinise or ask inconvenient questions of their preferred candidate.

Worse are the attacks on members who beg to differ. Is it really acceptable to speak of  members who are not supporting a certain candidate and  say they’ll leave as: “the dead wood, the dinosaurs, those lacking in contemporary backbone or those with past rose tinted grandeur will not be missed.”?

To me, that attitude, and of demanding that candidates must show their ‘credentials’  and prove to be as anti-islamic as AMW before they will even be listened to, smacks of virtue signalling just as obnoxious as that which we deplore when shown by the Left. To me, it also sounds dangerously similar to the way the hard left has managed to oust Old Labour in the now Momentum-run Corbyn Party. Is that how we want UKIP to be run?

We don’t have to send in our ballots by tomorrow, so may I use this letter to ask your readers to please give the other candidates at the very least a fair hearing, and ponder well their proposals for our Party before they make their choice!

Respectfully, Jack Russell

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48 Comments on Letters to the Editor – Saturday 9th September 2017

  1. We’re being walked all over because we’ve been too polite, diffident, private, British, to take a lead in our own governance. We need a rude, bold, combative, unBritish leader.
    We’ve been too anti intellectual, unphilosophical. We need a leader who can range easily over the ideologies that rule us, unexamined.
    We’ve been too self important and complacent, too interested in rights, too soft. We need a leader who’ll slap us round the face and tell us about duty.
    We need the desire to care to be taken down to be on an equal footing with justice.
    So I lean toward AMW.
    However..
    Although the country needs to be, and will like to be, grabbed by the scruff of the neck (I think there’s a body of the young who crave the chance to not be corralled by well meaning but stifling bureaucracy) I’m not sure the party itself is ready for it. This is a cultural and class change.
    And we also need a bedrock on which to build these duties, or we’ll be off down some other cultural dead end. But that’s too much to ask of politicians.

    • Also with AMW a significant risk of another bunch of hucksters and grifters, or enthusiasts and eccentrics, getting involved. This would need a very close watch. An intellectual movement needs only very few people to have an effect, but at an election there just have to be large numbers. JRE’s plan is effectively to cut this risk away, to have a policy platform without identifiable individuals proposing it or defending it, instead just pointing at it.

  2. I consider myself to be a libertarian and I was a libertarian Conservative. I see many ‘modern libertarians’ have migrated to UKIP but their self-styled libertarianism is mostly a degenerated form of the libertarian concept of the original Conservative libertarian right.
    When I identified with the Conservative libertarian right as a student at Cambridge University forty years ago it was a cardinal plank of our argument that political freedom did not exist without economic freedom. Then there were only about 25 democracies in the world and political freedom was a real concern. We were for the most part in favour of yes,economic freedom but also political freedom (including freedom of expression), personal freedom and social freedom. Our belief in freedom was comprehensive.
    Now I see so-called ‘libertarian’ candidates in the UKIP leadership election witch-hunting Anne Marie Waters for daring, often at considerable personal cost to herself, to campaign against the greatest threat to individual freedom in our country, Islamisation – indeed doing so before any other significant politically mainstream non-Muslim did so. She is being vilified for doing much the same as Nigel Farage (just lately addressing a rally of AFD, Alternative For Germany)and others have recently done. This is disgraceful, especially when coming from people calling themselves ‘libertarian’.
    Obviously Anne Marie Waters is not perfect and I disagree with her on some points. Indeed one may make an arguable case for another candidate to be UKIP Leader though there are no ‘safe options’ in the leadership contest. I agree with Anne Marie that UKIP has to offer a radical alternative to survive. I also think she is at least a class above any of the other candidates and particularly in combination with Stuart Agnew is the best hope (absent Nigel Farage) for UKIP now.
    Furthermore in reality she is across the spectrum the most genuinely libertarian of all the candidates.

  3. By the way as a side issue has anyone heard from Geoffrey Charles Elliot? There have not been any posts from him lately and I hope he is OK, I last heard him on the Jon Guant show recently when he was obviously endorsing AMW’s like crazy.

    • @ DD
      In the last week I saw a comment from Geoffrey on an article on Kipper Central and replied to it, supporting what he said. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the name of the article, but it is likely to be one about the leadership election or about the encroachment of islam in the UK.

      • Panmelia,

        Oh good, I am glad he is still about, I wonder why he is not commenting on here, perhaps he has given up.

        • DD, perhaps he has, and I don’t blame him in a way, sometimes it’s a hair-tearing business! I think Geoff might have blown a gasket if he’d read Tomaz Slivnik’s recent contribution. Comments on that thread are now closed, but the last thing I read on there was TS’s claim that I had ‘ratted’ on AMW by ‘revealing’ Tommy Robinson had some tweets on her Twitter page. Yes, and he knew it was true because he had checked for himself! Wasn’t a secret then, eh, Tomaz, Anne Marie’s Twitter page? Now he’s hoping that Crowther, Bickley, Oakden & Co will find out about my and others’ treasonous support for Tommy on ukipdaily and sack us all from the party. Tomaz is even now poring over the Party Rule Book; he’s already quoted sections/sub-sections at me.
          Oh, well, if he ‘rats’ me out, I might save 30 squid next month.

          • Panmelia,

            I know I could not believe his last comment which I was desperate to reply to but obviously unable to do so, he is so vindictive and strange issuing all these threats against you and me. Anyway, I was hoping that was the last we would hear from him but now he is commenting on another article. But hey ho, I guess we will just have to bear with him but not bother replying, perhaps then he might get the message.

            By the way if you are such rat what does that make me?!

  4. Nobody should be criticised or feel guilt for voicing their opinions. This site is well protected from outrageous abuse. How do I know, because I haven’t seen any and I am sure it could have been infinitely worse if allowed? No, the way I see it, contributors have been critical, persuasive, analytically brutal (?), and passionate. All the ingredients of a potent debate. We do not want a sterile pc debate. I am sure no one is being vindictive or holding grudges, what would be the point?
    Therefore if readers have been offended they do need to hold on tightly. The future will be a lot more difficult. I think if I was religious I would say God Bless Us All.

  5. Received my election documents today and filled it out and posted it back to Britain the same day. Many thanks to the hard pressed staff of UKIP for making this possible.

  6. By happy coincidence, my membership is due for renewal on 1st October.

    I shall not be renewing early. This is a polarising election, and we should expect exits and entrances according to the result. Not necessarily a bad thing.

    We will have a party with the courage to challenge Islam or we will have a party to… erm, what exactly?

    • Gummy,

      I am coming to the conclusion that the hierarchy of Ukip do not want to upset the apple cart too much, they are quite content it would seem, to hobnob with other politicians and not risk upsetting the MSM. These two facts alone are a sad case for us to contemplate, what has happened to their fire? Oh, I forgot he up and left.

    • Whatever party remains after the election and Conference, it will still be challenging religious extremism and insisting that there is one set of laws for us all, crafted in Westminster not Brussels. What matters in the future is the number of people who regard us as a reasonable and thus viable party, worth voting for.
      This requires us to have a broad appeal, something for the majority and not concentrating on a main issue that is of interest only to a minority or with a leader who appears to hate part of the community.

      We are all aware of how desperately the media tries to paint us as somehow nasty, make the wrong choice now and we will be the new BNP in every newspaper and TV channel. Sorry guys, what the MSM says still matters, social media is still a long way from replacing it. It should not have escaped your notice that those who rely on the internet for their news tend to be younger and thus less likely to vote for us, they have been brainwashed at school and uni. Alternative media matters, but not half as much as the BBC and the mainstream newspapers. It does not take a genius to forecast the headlines after the conference if we get this wrong. There is more than one way to solve a problem and a declaration of war is the worst one.

      • Good evening Icini

        I tend to agree with you. I am acquainted with several people who do not have/want internet access, let alone participating in social media. Most of them rely on newspapers and television news.

        There is one chap who fishes in the marina where I live who is a UKIP voter but keeps quiet about it due to abuse he has received in the past. He only discusses it with me because I am a UKIP member and he relies on me for news. Therefore we do need to be responsible for how we impart that news.

        With best wishes.

  7. I hope I have not criticised anyone personally or even told them they were wrong. It has been a very interesting contest. I started with a ‘certainty’ to get my vote, then I begun to listen to members here and elsewhere and started to think about another candidate. Then the hustings videos started and I was trapped. Personality, determination, ideas and ability appeared on stage. There was one thing obvious to me though, we need a new face at the helm. I was however put off by one candidate who kept headshaking while other candidates were speaking. That,to me means they will not work well with others as they are only interested in their own agenda so will not get my vote. Still to decide.

  8. I haven’t had so much fun in years.
    I’m confused. Everyone else seems confused. The range and standard of insults and defamation is extraorddinary. The subtlety, cunning, malevelance and diversity are all to be savoured and chuckled over later. Everyone’s having a fabulous time. The quality is so far above that of the peurile Lab/Con/LibDem bludgeon efforts, It makes me proud of UKIP

    • I do endorse this particular comment post!
      🙂

    • That’s the first good laugh I’ve had for ages, Mr Spokes! Thank you! People like you are why I hope UKIP will survive.

    • Returning to a more sober tone. I’m not confused and you wouldn’t be confused if we were coming off the back of a recent terrorist attack. The trouble is we have very short memories. Do any of you remember what it felt like not too long ago waking up on alternate Sunday mornings wondering if Jihadi John had beheaded someone the day before. Let’s stay focused and give AMW the chance to do some good for the country.

      • Sean,

        Absolutely right, I am not finding it a laughing matter either. This is really serious and we must choose the right one this time, but I cannot decide which one to vote for between David Kurten and AMW’s. It is just as well I have not received my ballot paper yet as this is proving so difficult, I am hoping that if either of them wins they could work together and maybe with some of the others JRE included.

        • Maybe I’m lucky, I’ve already made up my mind.
          On the other hand, maybe I’m not lucky because I don’t have a short memory either – which means I’m subconsciously bracing myself for the next Brit to made their bleeding head blown off.
          I pray to [insert your deity here] this is all a horrible dream.

        • I like David Kurten too but I think we need someone who will really get the MSM’s back up. That can only be AMW.

  9. Bernard from Bucks. // September 9, 2017 at 5:32 pm // Reply

    Well said Jack. This site is becoming a bit of a ‘ZYX’ supporters club and those who do back ‘ZYX’ are “the dead wood, the dinosaurs, those lacking in contemporary backbone or those with past rose tinted grandeur will not be missed.”
    The comments and letters here are unfortunately dominated by a vocal ‘few’.
    The ‘many’ will vote with much thought and consideration you wait and see on the election result.
    Disagreement is fine by me, but insults are deplorable.
    May the usual UKIP democracy triumph.

    • “May the usual UKIP democracy triumph”
      You mean, the process that got us where we are now??

    • @ BfromB
      “…dominated by a vocal few”?? Anyone who wants to can comment on ukipdaily and if you don’t like what they say, you can send your riposte. No one is ‘dominating’ anything. It all depends on whether you can be bothered to read the articles and spend further time composing responses; it also depends on how strongly you feel about a topic or a candidate. Viv and the other editors are not deliberately withholding some comments and letting others through en masse. We who say more, care more, and have undertaken (unasked and unpaid) to campaign on behalf of Anne Marie Waters. You could have done the same for your favoured candidate, if you’d wanted to.

  10. Jack Russell – having anti-Islamic credetials, is actually opposite to “virtue signalling”.

    • @ AY
      Thank you for that clarification, although I don’t regard myself as having any ‘credentials’, just a deeply held belief that islam is a threat to our country and freedom. That belief is based upon evidence.
      I don’t think Jack knows what ‘virtue-signalling’ is, or that it’s the province of Leftard hypocrites and their PC-indoctrinated supporters. Every time that AMW’s supporters express anti-islam comments, we are at risk of being targeted by the Thought Police.

    • Wrong.
      In your comments you’re signalling your virtue, which happens to be ‘having anti-islamic credentials’, to the rest of the readers.

      • I do think passion is one of Panmelias’ virtues, Jack – and there is nothing wrong with that. Apathy has got us where we are, imo.

      • @ Jack Russell
        Nonsense.
        I don’t need any ‘credentials’ and I don’t need to signal ‘virtue’, whatever your bizarre interpretation of that is, to anyone on here or anywhere else. I am a British patriot who insists on her birthright of free speech and am saying pretty much the same things now as I have been saying since early 2014, originally on the official Members’ Forum, now defunct.

        Unfortunately, some UKIP members are as slow to catch on as members of liblabcon and remain unaware of, or indifferent to, the horrible crimes committed by muslims and their koranic belief in islamosupremacism – their ‘allah’-given right to rulership of the world and its people, including us.
        The Leftards would virtue-signal like mad if they read my comments and accuse me of ‘islamophobia’, which is a crime nowadays it seems even though it does not exist in any recognised psychological or clinical form such as claustrophobia or arachnophobia. Apparently, if you suffer from claustrophobia you need therapy; if you exhibit the perfectly justified ‘islamophobia’ you deserve prison.
        To react to islam with fear and loathing, when one knows what it is and what it is capable of, is a rational response, especially in a female person with all her faculties. Notice: fear and loathing of ISLAM, not necessarily muslims. The girls, women, and homosexuals of both genders are the cult’s victims. Some men are too, but the majority enjoy their false status as lords of the earth too much to reject their false ideology.
        Don’t like my opinions? – don’t read ’em.

        • Hate to tell you this Pan, but even if every single Muslim in the country suddenly converts to another religion, most of our problems will still remain. It’s certainly a problem but unless we get ourselves sorted, we’ll all be in deep troublefar before your fear of some sort of takeover materialises. Just as one very small example, well outside the box, how many people to you think get killed on our roads every year? In 2013 it was over 1,700, plus of course the horrific injuries of survivors. Maybe we should ban cars because we have some very stupid drivers and pedestrians ?

          • Iceni,

            Just one question are cars or the people that drive them religious fanatics purposely setting out to murder people? Can you not see how illogical your argument is against the overbearing reality?

            In answer partly to your comment they are going to make hiring a van more difficult, I am sure that will solve some innocent victims being mowed down. Not.

          • @icini
            Hate to tell you this, icini, but your ‘argument’ is the most off the wall, cock-eyed, loop-the-loop piece of farcical drollery I’ve read, designed to drive any sober person well out of their box with laughter. Spluttertastic!

            Just to address your ‘very small example’ (actually, it’s minuscule) for a moment, how many people were killed and injured by horses and horse-drawn carriages before cars were invented? How many more people died after trains started running, c1825, that wouldn’t have died if there were no trains? Ditto for aeroplanes? Before the invention of the wheel, how many people died from exhaustion and accident walking long distances?
            It’s freedom and choice that matters: I am free to go where I choose and I will accept the risks of the journey, whatever they may be. Put it this way: I’d rather be killed by a car than be under the rule of islam.

            With islam, there is no freedom or choice about anything. You submit to allah and obey the koran and sharia law – or else; the ‘or else’ particularly applies if you are a woman. Women in Saudi Arabia can’t drive cars or go out without a male escort and shrouded in a blanket. Maybe they’re happier at home as sexual ’tilth’, breeders and domestic slaves

            Your problem is that you cannot think of any threats to our nation, culture, democracy, freedom and future autonomy bigger than the one islam represents. Every single thing we value has been threatened before and our forebears had to fight. Now it’s our turn.

            Out of fashion he may be and his statues threatened by cultural marxists, but Cecil Rhodes (1853-1902) said something worth repeating: “Remember that you are a Briton, and have consequently won first prize in the lottery of life.”
            (I’ve changed ‘an Englishman’ to ‘a Briton’ to include all of our island race.)

          • Icini, have you read the Koran?

            Islam aims to take over and subjugate everyone. If you are a Christian or a Jew you may be permitted to continue with your own religion, within certain constraints, and provided that Islam is in control, and that you pay the Jizya tax as a sign of your inferiority and submission.

            Your whataboutery convinces nobody. Terrorism is but one aspect of Jihad. Demographic Jihad is the one that will cause Islam to win in western countries. The current trend is that it will reach the point of no return where it is going to win, sometime around the year 2030 or 2040. It does not imply 50% of the population at that point, but that it cannot be stopped from that point.

        • Slight correction to the above: should be ‘since early 2013′ on the old UKIP Members’ Forum. Those were my early forays into social media and I was unaware of the ease of hacking. I often wondered why posters used funny pen names! It was supposed to be a security-protected private site, but a mole sent some contributors’ posts to the Sunday Mail early in 2014 and all hell broke loose. Then there were rows about failure of moderation …
          Bye, bye, UKIP Members’ Forum, no longer a bastion of free speech. Ukipdaily is a very valuable service because it’s an alternative source of news/information to the ‘official’ party lines.

      • nope.
        not endorsing Sharia is just plain common sense.

        • I do not endorse Sharia, non stun killing of animals in the UK or any other cultural or religious practice contrary to law or to generally accepted UK cultural norms. Religion or lack of it is not an excuse for special treatment. Likewise I accept freedom to worship as anyone wishes, provided it harms no one inside or outside the religious group concerned. One avoidable death is too many, especially by violence. Islam is however not the most serious problem facing us. That would be proper Brexit, for without it we can’t set our own laws.
          We need to grasp that the vast majority of the electorate are more concerned with border control and mass immigration than with existing Muslim citizens. Every group had bad apples.

          • “Every group had bad apples.”

            Anti-Semitism (pedantically anti-Jewish) sentiment has been a core part of Islam from quite early in its history. Mohammed got a bit annoyed with the Jews of Medina when they refused to acknowledge him as a prophet. Would you say that Mohammed was a bad apple, for killing the Jews just because he disagreed with?

  11. @ Jack Russell
    You are confusing free speech and opinion with intimidation. It is nonsense to accuse ukipdaily contributors of the bully-boy tactics of the Left. If you recall, members of Momentum were emailing Labour MPs and their supporters with insults and threats, and still are from what I gather. Labour MPs are at risk of being deselected by Marxists for not agreeing with their extremist PC views. Sarah Champion MP was sacked from Corbyn’s front bench for stating the proven-in-court truth about Pakistani muslim rapists and she was probably glad to go, considering the loopy Leftards’ accusations of ‘you’re a racist’ and ‘shut your mouth, you’re undermining diversity’. No one on ukipdaily has behaved in this disgraceful way. If anyone has been hounded off here by intimidatory language or threats, I’d like to see the evidence for it.
    By definition, ‘virtue-signalling’ happens only when hypocritical fools are prepared to deny, ignore and dismiss unpalatable facts in order to toe the strictly illogical PC line. For example, Corbyn’s statement that it is wrong to blame one community for certain crimes. He said this despite the fact that the convicted street-grooming racist gangs responsible for the rapes of thousands of vulnerable young white girls, some under-age, are committed by one community: muslims, mostly Pakistani. That is an example of denial and virtue-signalling par excellence. I have not found any virtue-signallers on ukipdaily or generally in UKIP, with the possible exception of Jane Collins and other members of the hierarchy.

    I think you can expect to find partisanship in a leadership election; it would be pretty dull otherwise. The nature of that partisanship as expressed on this site has not been extreme or bullying or threatening – how can it be when the participants are largely unknown to each other with no access to personal emails, and with Viv and the other editors refereeing?

  12. I,m posting this here ’cause I don’t know where else to put it. I’ve just received the mag.etc. I have to say an excellent product and congrats to the funder, the NEC, and the candidates. Well done indeed.

    I hate to inject an inapropriate note, but. If they really changed the logo or name etc in 1937. I sold my first company to them in 1969 some 30 years later;- to a variety of peeople who almost without exception introduced themselves as ” from 3Ms which used to be Minnesota mining and manufacturing “,
    ’cause 3Ms was a silly name and you got respect if you said Minnesota etc etc, and they didn’t dare change it back.

    And 5 years later they wwere still doing it except to stationery chains.

    Never believe snake oil salesmen.

    It was years before I understood why they wanted the co,.

  13. CK, a brilliant summing up as usual. I agree with all your comment and would add that I was enormously heartened to hear Anne Marie say in the last Hustings I’ve listened to that should she be chosen she would be happy to work with any of the other candidates who would work with her – she would forget all that went before.
    No other candidate made a reciprocal agreement.
    Wouldn’t a Waters, Rees-Evans Kurten team be a great way forward!

  14. Up until the referendum leaving the EU was a goal we could all agree on. Thus, red UKIP, purple UKIP, and every kind of UKIP, were united.

    Now the pursuit of ideological purity has replaced that common goal. Identity politics has infected UKIP just as it has wider society. It does not bode well.

    • No, Stout, it doesn’t – I think that’s why I get so exercised! I shall be so glad when this is over – I just want UKIP to choose a direction and be done with it.
      The only slight consolation I get is that whatever happens, each of us will be able to move on – after a few weeks rest!

  15. Important and timely contributions from both Citizen and Jack Russell. Thank you.

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